From Conversations with Muslim Friends:
Atarongo: The dangers of the journey across the seas are many and the nature of the rescuer is to rescue and his reward is in having rescued.
And would the rescuer not prefer the wayfarers at the end of their journey to celebrate and be happy and delight in their safety, rather than argue about whose rescuer was best? - Is the forgetful and thankless nature of man, preventing such argument, not the superior wisdom?
Every rescue leaves an indelible point of light on the map of every seafarer and can never be blotted out, not even by the forgetful nature of the human mind.
The clinging nature of the human mind, however, will create a shadow obscuring the rays of the light of guidance.
The light of guidance shines from every direction and the rudder must turn freely without being chained by expectation.
For the dangers of the journey across the seas are many....
Any light remembers the darkness in which it appeared and thus be the mother of infinite light.
It cannot be otherwise.
Any answer remembers the question that drew it from the formless ocean. The answer and the ocean share the same essence, but not the same dimension, one is in time and the other is timeless, one has a beginning and an end, the other not, one is limited, the other without limit.
One can be abused, the other not.
One can be silenced, the other prevails anyway.
But, in August 2014, here and now, my friends, I am asking with all sincerity, how can our broken house be mended? - What does it take?
Atarongo: this kind of content is found in most religions and it exasperates me. On one hand it seems to proclaim tolerance, which is perfect and sensible, on the other hand it speaks about "disbelievers" and "false deities", "right direction" and "distinct from error", which is in the same breath putting one's own religion above all others. grrrrr! - I' m afraid, this way we will never come to a genuine place of respect for one another. -
Of course, I can also interpret it, so that it receives meaning.
The human mind has the capacity to generate erroneous thoughts, not in harmony with existence.
There is a reality about worshiping unsuitable principles, like materialism and self-projections.
There are people, who prefer to doubt the spiritual nature of human beings, because it serves them better in their chosen life-styles and there is a right direction, which will serve all of us to create a good future for humankind.
But to claim those virtues for anything that is written in a book and therefore subject to the limitations of the reader's mind, to limit those benefits to any religion and deny them to others, just because they use different language, different concepts, different frames of reference, coming from different cultures and backgrounds, I find objectionable and counter-productive. It is a put down to others and an elevation of self. This approach in itself constitutes imo a false deity, an error and a disbelief in the spiritual nature. To me it also limits the Source of All Being, God, Allah, as if this source would only speak to one and not the other, as if only one and not the other had the capacity to understand, as if only one and not the other had the capacity to mis-understand as well. I experience this statement as divisive and the God, I now inside would never do that.
I look at all the scriptures I know, the Old Testament talks about smashing children against rocks, the New Testament talks about Jesus cursing fig trees, the Buddhist Canon talks about the impossibility of redemption from sin, the Taoist scriptures talk about keeping ordinary people uneducated to ensure stable government, the Shamans believe in domination and control to get things right, the communists....., the atheists...., the free-market economists..... they all have their errors, they all claim infallibility and they all ave their good points.
I wish so much we could come to an understanding, that the claim of infallibility is a human problem, which even the founders of our religions were not immune to.
Atarongo: if the patient lives, he was in the hands of a surgeon and if he dies, he was in the hands of a killer.
For the trusting patient there are no killers, only surgeons and for the doubtful patient there are no surgeons, only killers.
The laser sharp knife of healing will be received by any patient unconditionally surrendered in trust to the surgeon, will be wielded by any surgeon unconditionally devoted to the welfare of the patient.
In reality, the patient and the surgeon are one and inseparable from each other
But the knife of death will be received by any prideful patient and be wielded by any prideful physician.
Are we dying, dear brother, or living, here on earth?
Tell me!
Please!
On the other hand, dear friends, confusion is sometimes a good state, or at least necessary. Things come out into the open, there is a state of flux, minds will re-order themselves, that is their nature. Rationality just is the deep nature of our minds. The prophet observes that and fostered it, giving nurture and care to it and exhorting people to do the same. Yet the power, the true power is never to be oppressed forever, it will always shine through, it will always prevail, even against all odds, because it is in its own nature to do so. Boundless trust is a rational choice.
Also, it is not surprising to me that the power of Islam got corrupted. All religions got corrupted and the more powerful a revelation is, the more attractive it will be to the cunning shadow mind to hi-jack its power. - All the powers of God suffer the same fate, love, beauty, art, music, courage, strength, will, ..rationality, the brilliance of the enlightened mind, all the innumerable expressions of God's power are not immune to the distortion of a corrupted instrument, only in the fullness of time all was, is and will be perfected. It is the secret beyond the mind, that heals itself. The order of things is inevitable. Balance is the deepest quality of existence, which is immutable and can be relied upon. boundless trust is a rational choice.
Now, my conclusion and my proposition that I want to put up for consideration is: Could it be exactly this absolute station, this claim of the Holy Book to be the final and original word of God, notwithstanding its precious contents, that makes it so vulnerable to be used by clerics for their own selfish gains? -
atarongo: But clergy are a part of the people, rise on the strength of peoples desires, express the vices within the characters of the people. They become leaders, because they are perhaps the most ardent in the pursuit of those vices and desires, but they could not rise within a population free from those obscurities. We have to collectively take responsibility for letting exactly those kinds of leaders rise within our midst and ask ourselves, where is the root of this deviation?
atarongo: Sounds like the perfect guidance for resolving any crisis. How can we beg God for mercy and not have mercy on ourselves and others? - Mercy is needed, because we are human. We are human and part of the human condition is to make mistakes. We are not created infallible. we are created with the capacity for error. The capacity for error is the other side of the capacity for learning. Accepting this capacity in oneself and others as a profound and permanent attribute, that will never change must be the first step. - This desire for infallibility is a profound resistance against the most basic human attribute, a resistance against the way we are, the way God made us. This resistance prevents us from learning. Mercy is the power that can melt down this resistance. How can we receive God's mercy, if we do not allow this mercy to well up from within ourselves? - God is pouring rivers of mercy upon our world and yet, we must drink from it before it can heal our souls.
Therefore I believe it is better to refrain completely from the idea of infallibility. It is very dangerous, very unhealthy to call anything within our sphere infallible. It would be the perfect object on which this resistant mind can fix itself onto and project its own desire for infallibility, while still pretending to be a humble servant: "I am not infallible, but this (idea, dogma, book) is." - I cannot imagine, that the eternal wisdom would ever counsel us to define anything as infallible. Even if there was an infallible concept, an infallible idea, an infallible book, I believe the eternal wisdom would rather counsel us to be open to the discovery of error within everything, rather than risk this kind of perversion.
Wisdom does not need to be believed in. Wisdom will prove itself on an ongoing basis.
Quote: " the LORD ALMIGHTY describes the nature of man in Quran,17; 67. And when harm toucheth you upon the sea, all unto whom ye cry (for succour) fail save Him (alone), but when He bringeth you safe to land, ye turn away, for man was ever thankless."
Atarongo: The dangers of the journey across the seas are many and the nature of the rescuer is to rescue and his reward is in having rescued.
And would the rescuer not prefer the wayfarers at the end of their journey to celebrate and be happy and delight in their safety, rather than argue about whose rescuer was best? - Is the forgetful and thankless nature of man, preventing such argument, not the superior wisdom?
Every rescue leaves an indelible point of light on the map of every seafarer and can never be blotted out, not even by the forgetful nature of the human mind.
The clinging nature of the human mind, however, will create a shadow obscuring the rays of the light of guidance.
The light of guidance shines from every direction and the rudder must turn freely without being chained by expectation.
For the dangers of the journey across the seas are many....
Any light remembers the darkness in which it appeared and thus be the mother of infinite light.
It cannot be otherwise.
Any answer remembers the question that drew it from the formless ocean. The answer and the ocean share the same essence, but not the same dimension, one is in time and the other is timeless, one has a beginning and an end, the other not, one is limited, the other without limit.
One can be abused, the other not.
One can be silenced, the other prevails anyway.
But, in August 2014, here and now, my friends, I am asking with all sincerity, how can our broken house be mended? - What does it take?
Quote: "the LORD ALMIGHTY says there is no compulsion in religion. quran.
2;256. There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
109;1. Say: O disbelievers!
109;2. I worship not that which ye worship;
109;3. Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109;4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109;5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109;6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion"
Atarongo: this kind of content is found in most religions and it exasperates me. On one hand it seems to proclaim tolerance, which is perfect and sensible, on the other hand it speaks about "disbelievers" and "false deities", "right direction" and "distinct from error", which is in the same breath putting one's own religion above all others. grrrrr! - I' m afraid, this way we will never come to a genuine place of respect for one another. -
Of course, I can also interpret it, so that it receives meaning.
The human mind has the capacity to generate erroneous thoughts, not in harmony with existence.
There is a reality about worshiping unsuitable principles, like materialism and self-projections.
There are people, who prefer to doubt the spiritual nature of human beings, because it serves them better in their chosen life-styles and there is a right direction, which will serve all of us to create a good future for humankind.
But to claim those virtues for anything that is written in a book and therefore subject to the limitations of the reader's mind, to limit those benefits to any religion and deny them to others, just because they use different language, different concepts, different frames of reference, coming from different cultures and backgrounds, I find objectionable and counter-productive. It is a put down to others and an elevation of self. This approach in itself constitutes imo a false deity, an error and a disbelief in the spiritual nature. To me it also limits the Source of All Being, God, Allah, as if this source would only speak to one and not the other, as if only one and not the other had the capacity to understand, as if only one and not the other had the capacity to mis-understand as well. I experience this statement as divisive and the God, I now inside would never do that.
I look at all the scriptures I know, the Old Testament talks about smashing children against rocks, the New Testament talks about Jesus cursing fig trees, the Buddhist Canon talks about the impossibility of redemption from sin, the Taoist scriptures talk about keeping ordinary people uneducated to ensure stable government, the Shamans believe in domination and control to get things right, the communists....., the atheists...., the free-market economists..... they all have their errors, they all claim infallibility and they all ave their good points.
I wish so much we could come to an understanding, that the claim of infallibility is a human problem, which even the founders of our religions were not immune to.
"u see there are two things. there is a scalpel. u can do surgery to cure a patient.in the hands of a killer the same knife can kill the person."
Atarongo: if the patient lives, he was in the hands of a surgeon and if he dies, he was in the hands of a killer.
For the trusting patient there are no killers, only surgeons and for the doubtful patient there are no surgeons, only killers.
The laser sharp knife of healing will be received by any patient unconditionally surrendered in trust to the surgeon, will be wielded by any surgeon unconditionally devoted to the welfare of the patient.
In reality, the patient and the surgeon are one and inseparable from each other
But the knife of death will be received by any prideful patient and be wielded by any prideful physician.
Are we dying, dear brother, or living, here on earth?
Tell me!
Please!
On the other hand, dear friends, confusion is sometimes a good state, or at least necessary. Things come out into the open, there is a state of flux, minds will re-order themselves, that is their nature. Rationality just is the deep nature of our minds. The prophet observes that and fostered it, giving nurture and care to it and exhorting people to do the same. Yet the power, the true power is never to be oppressed forever, it will always shine through, it will always prevail, even against all odds, because it is in its own nature to do so. Boundless trust is a rational choice.
Also, it is not surprising to me that the power of Islam got corrupted. All religions got corrupted and the more powerful a revelation is, the more attractive it will be to the cunning shadow mind to hi-jack its power. - All the powers of God suffer the same fate, love, beauty, art, music, courage, strength, will, ..rationality, the brilliance of the enlightened mind, all the innumerable expressions of God's power are not immune to the distortion of a corrupted instrument, only in the fullness of time all was, is and will be perfected. It is the secret beyond the mind, that heals itself. The order of things is inevitable. Balance is the deepest quality of existence, which is immutable and can be relied upon. boundless trust is a rational choice.
I beg your Pardon,atarongo: I believe, I do see some discrepancy. Now, I have to beg for leniency before I continue and please be assured, that I have no intention to insult God. - However I cannot deny my doubts about the station, which the Quran is given, according to your explanation. To my present understanding, any concrete manifestation, be it an idea, a rule, a law, an action, a word, a pen, even a mere thought, a sound, anything that occurs in time is subject to change. Anything that has a form is subject to change. Anything that is defined, that has a definition has a limitation also. It has an inside and an outside. It has an area of validity and an area of not being valid. Anything tangible, anything that can be touched by the mind is limited. Only the ocean of possibilities, the un-manifest, the silence is perfect, immutable and incorruptible. Only the silence contains all possible sounds. - You are saying, that "The Holy Quran" is viewed to be above limitation, identical with God and incorruptible. - To me this sounds irrational. The prophet was a human being, as Jesus, as Moses, as Abraham, as Buddha as well were human beings. He received the revelation first in his mind, his mind moved his hand, his hand moved his pen, his mind moved his tongue. All we can hear and read is first filtered by the mind of the prophet. It cannot be otherwise to my logical understanding. He may have said and written that it would be otherwise, but how can we know? - We only know it from the pen in the hand of the prophet, from the tongue of the prophet, which were moved by the mind of the prophet. I cannot see any possibility, that it should be otherwise. - Notwithstanding these doubts, I fully believe that a believer, who reads and meditates upon verses in the Quran can experience a direct connection with the source, with God. Historically, the Quran is the youngest of the revelations. The human collective mind has been more mature and able to understand more than in previous times. The lessons from previous revelations had already been doing their work. So therefore I believe the wisdom of the Quran is deeper and more comprehensive than in previous holy books. It would not negate previous books, but build on them, expand on them. Also, I can easily believe, that the Quran is the last holy book that was to be written and it will have no more sequel. I find it credible, that this was to be the last message, that came in this form, that Mohammed is the last prophet to act in this function for the revelation of God, that he really sealed this cycle of revelations. - What I cannot rationally agree with, is that God should be sealed into a form. I cannot and do not want to deny the possibility, that our human consciousness can outgrow any limited form, as long as it is beneficial and improving our condition of life. Putting it the other way round: Any concept or idea, any thought, however appropriate or healthy at one time, must be reviewable, as soon as the development and the circumstances prove that the continued application of the idea leads to an unhealthy effect on life. - Does something have a healthy or an unhealthy effect on life? - I want to choose this to be my ultimate yardstick of evaluation. I believe, this is for me the best way to follow the deepest intelligence of God, who is life, whose will is good.
Islam as a Religion has not been, Corrupted, at all.
' The Holy Quran ', The Holy Book, of the Muslim Faith, is in Original.
But, rather, than being Practised, and followed in letter and Spirit,
It is being used by the Clerics who have jumped into Politics, for gaining Worldly Power and Wealth.
Now, my conclusion and my proposition that I want to put up for consideration is: Could it be exactly this absolute station, this claim of the Holy Book to be the final and original word of God, notwithstanding its precious contents, that makes it so vulnerable to be used by clerics for their own selfish gains? -
If any Nation or Civilisation has Allowed the Clergy into Politics and State Craft, that Civilisation has been doomed. For, the Simple reason, that, the Clergy use Religion to Suppress People and to Block free thinking.
atarongo: But clergy are a part of the people, rise on the strength of peoples desires, express the vices within the characters of the people. They become leaders, because they are perhaps the most ardent in the pursuit of those vices and desires, but they could not rise within a population free from those obscurities. We have to collectively take responsibility for letting exactly those kinds of leaders rise within our midst and ask ourselves, where is the root of this deviation?
CODE OF ETHICS FOR THE MESSENGER AND LEADER
3;159. It was by the mercy of Allah that thou wast lenient with them (O Muhammad), for if thou hadst been stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from round about thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah. Lo! Allah loveth.
atarongo: Sounds like the perfect guidance for resolving any crisis. How can we beg God for mercy and not have mercy on ourselves and others? - Mercy is needed, because we are human. We are human and part of the human condition is to make mistakes. We are not created infallible. we are created with the capacity for error. The capacity for error is the other side of the capacity for learning. Accepting this capacity in oneself and others as a profound and permanent attribute, that will never change must be the first step. - This desire for infallibility is a profound resistance against the most basic human attribute, a resistance against the way we are, the way God made us. This resistance prevents us from learning. Mercy is the power that can melt down this resistance. How can we receive God's mercy, if we do not allow this mercy to well up from within ourselves? - God is pouring rivers of mercy upon our world and yet, we must drink from it before it can heal our souls.
Therefore I believe it is better to refrain completely from the idea of infallibility. It is very dangerous, very unhealthy to call anything within our sphere infallible. It would be the perfect object on which this resistant mind can fix itself onto and project its own desire for infallibility, while still pretending to be a humble servant: "I am not infallible, but this (idea, dogma, book) is." - I cannot imagine, that the eternal wisdom would ever counsel us to define anything as infallible. Even if there was an infallible concept, an infallible idea, an infallible book, I believe the eternal wisdom would rather counsel us to be open to the discovery of error within everything, rather than risk this kind of perversion.
Wisdom does not need to be believed in. Wisdom will prove itself on an ongoing basis.
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